Important if you are travelling..........

[dejavou]

You can have my share Shade .... I don't like choccie, however it's spelt

[shade]

Thanks Dejavou..at least I can get through the afternoon now

[Shutterfrog]

Well I am addicted to chocklit...have you any to spare please???

we always have chocklit......... hopefully enough to share with all who want some.

Deja ! I forgot you don't like chocklit. What shall I bring you next trip?

[dejavou]

Just yourself Gina

[Steve]

Gina, I know that a great many Americans don't like their government, but no, I wouldn't call such people "anti-American". I just feel it is too easy to criticise a country and then tack on the convenient excuse "of course I mean I'm against their government, not their people".

Governments of democratic countries are chosen BY the people and can be replaced if they fail to live up to expectations. That's the only way to go. In all fairness though, Rowan did not confine her criticisms to the US government or its President, but made general observations about the country as a whole.

Kevin, The anti this and anti that brigade, of which you are one, are so so wrong. It is nothing more than a way to stifle debate. Same as being anti muslim, or even racist when one objects to or even mentions immigration.

When we critisize Israel jews everywhere shout anti Israeli or anti semitic in the hope we will all shut up. Some people simply do not like the truth.

Just because someone does not agree with the governement of a certain country does not make them anti what ever. I have many American friends, some of whom visit us here every year. I am against American foreign Policy be that supplying bombs to Israel, what is going on in Iraq or the fare trade agreement which they ruined. I am not however anti American.

Anyway the Americans who voted to return Bush to power only did so to show we 'Brits' they understood irony.

[Kevin]

Steve, are we not ALL members of the "anti this, anti that" brigade at the end of the day? Why do you claim that calling someone "anti..." is an attempt to stifle debate? I'd say it was precisely the opposite.

[Steve]

I see saying some one is anti American, for example, as just that Kevin, an attempt to stifle debate. As I keep saying when people are discussing immigration on any forum, TV show or radio show the anti brigade join in. I know many people who do not have an anti bone in their body but do have something worth while to say on a variety of topics..............they dont though as they are affraid of being called racist, anti semitic or anti what ever.

Indeed there are many who have voiced this on even this forum which is far from being a political by ant means.

Just because someone does not agree with the foreign policy of America, for example, does not make them anti American. I am against the foreign policy of the UK in relation to Iraq but that does not make me anti the UK...............the logic of some would say that I was.

I argue a lot about English stuff but dont tell my English wife that I am anti English. I am accused of being so very often by people who know that what I am saying makes sense and they dont like it.

Two fine examples of people making such accusations are Rog and Hilltop, they try to conceal the truth, hide it away and in the latters case does not even know what the truth may be. They variouosly make accusations of people being Nazies, of being anti semitic, Jew haters and so forth. Its their only defence at times and they are expected to make such accusations as Jews are told to use the Haulocost to their advantage.

Yes Kevin its all about stifling debate, making certain that only the one side of the argument is heard.

[dejavou]

Well I'm always interested to read other people's point of view, I even change my mind about some things if a point is well made, after all non of us are infallible and we are all conditioned by our personal experiences. But it would be very sad to have closed mind to anything new

[Kevin]

Steve, I agree with much of what you wrote in your last posting, but at the end of the day we are all "anti" this and "pro" that, and surely that is what debate is all about.

My personal views about anti-Americanism are conditioned by what my American wife has experienced in the many years she's lived outside the USA and that I have myself witnessed. It's always the same lame excuse - "oh, it's not the people I'm against, but rather government policy" to which I simply say "rubbish".

Most folk think my wife is very reserved and shy, but I have seen her demolish someone who dared to make a remark that she considered an insult to her nation.

[Rowan]

Then you can maybe understand why the Scots, Welsh and Irish defend THEIR nations so strongly Kevin. The thing is, we tend NOT to defend where we think an attack is justified!

[megra]

I'm afraid I do not understand, nor can I approve of this "my country right or wrong" attitude. Criticising a government has nothing to do with racial prejudice, it is merely political debate. I maintain the right to criticise my own government and that of any other country, system or ideology so far as I have the facts to my command. That does not make me racist nor does it make me (and I hate this term) a "self-hater."

I have only ever met one American I disliked. Despised would be nearer the mark. But I no more judged all Americans by his hypocritical, bullying and mendacious character than I would judge them by the actions of their government. I have met quite a few Americans and found them for the most part generous by nature and likeable. But just because I know Americans I like isn't going to stop me criticising the U.S. government or some of its instititutions if I see fit. Equally, I would judge any Israeli I met on personal merit, not by the actions of Israel's government. On the other hand, I wouldn't automatically assume that someone who came from a country of whose government I approved was necessarily a good and worthy person. To personalise politics in the way discussed here isn't a particularly mature approach. Luckily, apart from in cyberspace, I rarely encounter such attitudes.

So slag off my local council, my government, any institutions to which I belong. I'll always refuse to see that as an insult to my person and, so long as your argument is a good one, I'll probably agree with you.

[vannin]

Then you can maybe understand why the Scots, Welsh and Irish defend THEIR nations so strongly Kevin. The thing is, we tend NOT to defend where we think an attack is justified!

Whoopee! Well said, that lady!

[Shutterfrog]

Well said, Megra

[Rowan]

Hear hear!!

[Kevin]

It's all very well to say that sort of thing, Megra, when you're living in your own country, but try living in a country that isn't yours and then you'll find that you suddenly become a focus for everything that pertains to your own nation.

I've found that when I lived abroad, I became a sounding board for every opinion concerning Britain and the British, just as my wife gets all the flak directed at America. You can't avoid it. Simply being a foreigner is sufficient. OK, few people are ever actually antagonistic or rude (though I have known a few), but once you've heard a few critics begin their tirade with "of course it's not the PEOPLE of so-and-so that I object to, but rather...blah, blah, blah you more or less know what's coming next.

Americans always get more of this than any other nationality, purely and simply because the USA is the world's greatest and richest power. Calling someone "anti-American" or whatever only means that you perceive them having an antipathy to one or more aspects of that nation, whether it's government policy, language, customs, traditions or at the end of the day, yes, the people themselves.

For example, I am anti-French. In my case, it is the French people as a whole that I don't like because I consider the majority of French folk that I've met in my lifetime as particularly rude and unfriendly. I would NEVER consider living in France.