Will you be displaying your flag on Monday?

[Dorrie]

I also have seen many English flags flying, as mine was outside my house window.

All around my area the flags are blowing proudly in the breeze.

'There'll always be an England'

I give you a toast Ladies and gentlemen,
I give you a toast Ladies and gentlemen
May this fair land we love so well,
In Dignity and freedom dwell.
while worlds may change and go awry,
Whilst there is still one voice to cry!---
There'll always be an England,
While there's a country lane.
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street.
Wherever there's a turning wheel
A million marching feet.
Red, white and blue
What does it mean to you?
Surely you're proud
Shout it loud
Britons awake!
The Empire too
We can depend on you.
Freedom remains
These are the chains
Nothing can break.
There'll always be an England
And England shall be free
If England means as much to you
As England means to me.

Ross Parker & Hughie Charles

[megra]

I'm pleased to note that I did not see a single flag of St George yesterday, not where I live nor where I work nor on any public building that I passed. Obviously, people in my neck of the woods have more intelligence than to indulge in such meaningless banalities. There'll always be an England? Yes well that's not saying much is it? There'll always be an island in the Atlantic called Rockall but it doesn't mean you'd want to live there. But then the lyrics quoted above say absolutely nothing and even confuse Britons with the English.

"The Empire too/ We can depend on you. /Freedom remains /These are the chains / Nothing can break." Yeah, right. The Empire thank heavens is no more because it was nothing to do with freedom. Obviously, as much thought went into the writing of these lyrics as goes into waving a bit of cloth about as a substitute for anything approaching worthwhile valuation and celebration. It would seem that England means a hell of a lot more to me than it means to Messrs. Parker and Charles or to those who think that cultural heritage and pride can be reduced to waving around a rag on a stick.

Megra That is my view also. To your list I would add many poets and writers and of course Tom Payne and then there is Constable, Turner and Gainsborough. All far more worthy of celebration and pride in your fellow being.

Hear, hear, VM. The list, of course, is almost endless of the great artists, thinkers, scientists and so on. I don't object to flags per se, of course. What I do object to is the substitution of any real consideration of culture and heritage with the mere waving about of a bit of cloth. And that is what is happening in most cases. One wonders just how many of these supposedly proud English who reduce patriotism to flag waving would even be able to tell a Constable and a Turner apart. How often do they visit our museums and art galleries? How many of, for instance, Shakespeare's plays have they read, studied, seen productions of? How many lines of Shelley could they quote off the top of their heads? Without reference to Google, how many could name William Harvey's principal claim to fame or spell out the aims of the Levellers? The office junior took today off work to "celebrate" St. George's Day. He was going on some parade to wave his little flag and he's taken tomorrow off to recover from the hangover he will have got today. That's English pride. He didn't even know it was Shakespeare's birthday (I somehow doubt he could even name one of his plays).

No. We are reduced to, "I'm English, I'm proud. I can't explain what that means but look at me I'm waving a flag about and that proves I'm a patriot." I think that is something worth moaning about.

[Victors Mate]

This sheds some light on an interesting topic.

http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/athflag.htm

When looking at potential Patron Saints it is worth examining the credentials of:-

St Edward the Confessor
St Edmund
St Bede (the venerable Bede)

[megra]

Then there is St Piran (aka Perran) whose flag is a white cross on a black ground. Though he is more Celt and venerated by yer autochthonous Britons rather than yer johnnie-come-lately immigrants, the English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Piran

Another home grown boy but again of the original Britons rather than the interlopers is Dewi Sant (his flag being a yellow cross on a black ground):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_David

In a bid for sexual equality and to give the English immigrants one of their own to venerate, there's St. Etheldreda:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86thelthryth

But, so far as I know, she doesn't have a flag so this may disqualify her, the flag apparently being the only valid outward and visible sign of Englishness and English pride.

[Anya]

Each person has a different view on most subjects, that is what makes life interesting.

Surely, we can share those disparate (or even desperate) views, without being offensive to one another?

[Victors Mate]

Sorry Anya where is this "being offensive"?

Robust opinions yes but that is part of a forum debate.

[Miriam]

Megra, you sound very embittered!
I truly feel very sorry for you.

I love my American Flag!! A sense of pride, patriotism and joy swells my heart when I see it flapping away in the breeze. Wonderful feeling.

Has nothing to do with quoting poets, reading plays, appreciating art. Why should it?

Merely raw PATRIOTISM... try it, you might like it!!
doubt you will however......we're on different wavelengths.

Cheers
Miriam

[Victors Mate]

Hmm Raw Patriotism. I usually run a mile when someone appeals to my patriotism raw or otherwise.

You see it is usually some Dictator, President, Prime Minister or such with some big idea that I, or others like me, should toddle off and die for some big idea he/she has had. Not, you understand, that they will risk their own life. Oh no that doesn't feature in their scheme of things at all.

I prefer to live for my country and celebrate it's poets, composers, civilisers and the like.

As to dieing for my country sorry there's no future in it.

[dejavou]

We all celebrate our "patriotism" in different ways, because we can, but I do find the St Georges Flag being called a rag on a stick rather offensive, much as I hate to see any countries flag being burnt as a sign of dissent.

But each to their own

[megra]

We all celebrate our "patriotism" in different ways, because we can, but I do find the St Georges Flag being called a rag on a stick rather offensive, much as I hate to see any countries flag being burnt as a sign of dissent.

But each to their own

rag, n., A small piece of cloth or paper
stick, n., Implement consisting of a length of wood

Are flags not made of cloth or paper? Are they not attached to lengths of wood?

What they definitely are not is holy relics. They are just things, totemic things granted, but just things. If you think that cloth and bits of wood make you a patriot, I would suggest you think again. Are you so easily offended? What you would defend is surely nothing more than idolatry of trivial objects. Patriotism should be about things a great deal more meaningful than that.

Given how much importance is invested in rags on sticks by those unwilling or incapable of seeing the bigger picture, anger at the actions of those who line up behind such totems, it would seem to me cannot be better expressed than burning the trivial and immensely inflammable objects of devotion. You can't burn creativity, inspiration, culture, the things actually worthy of our admiration and pride. The flammability test seems to me a perfect way of judging the worth of the focus of admiration.

P.S. Miriam, dear, you read my words. You didn't listen to them so I couldn't have sounded any way. Nothing I have written has indicated embitterment. I may be irritated. Now that would have been an insightful suggestion. I am irritated that people of mature years and, one supposes, some experience should be so trivial and superficial about such important subjects. So you love your rag on a stick in a completely mindless, uninformed way, have no real understanding about patriotism and have the temerity to pity me. Your life is full of bunting. Mine is full of culture and history and beauty, pride in the struggles of my ancestors and in the heritage or more than two thousand years as a developing nation. I wouldn't go anywhere near "raw patriotism." It is a vile concept and shameful to anyone who embraces it. It is the emotion encouraged by demagogues and dictators as VM has suggested.

VM, I agree with you on the death thing too. I'd rather live for my country than die for it.

[Miriam]

What they definitely are not is holy relics. They are just things, totemic things granted, but just things. If you think that cloth and bits of wood make you a patriot, I would suggest you think again. Are you so easily offended? What you would defend is surely nothing more than idolatry of trivial objects. Patriotism should be about things a great deal more meaningful than that.
Given how much importance is invested in rags on sticks by those unwilling or incapable of seeing the bigger picture, anger at the actions of those who line up behind such totems, it would seem to me cannot be better expressed than burning the trivial and immensely inflammable objects of devotion. You can't burn creativity, inspiration, culture, the things actually worthy of our admiration and pride. The flammability test seems to me a perfect way of judging the worth of the focus of admiration.
P.S. Miriam, dear, you read my words. You didn't listen to them so I couldn't have sounded any way. Nothing I have written has indicated embitterment. I may be irritated. Now that would have been an insightful suggestion. I am irritated that people of mature years and, one supposes, some experience should be so trivial and superficial about such important subjects. So you love your rag on a stick in a completely mindless, uninformed way, have no real understanding about patriotism and have the temerity to pity me. Your life is full of bunting. Mine is full of culture and history and beauty, pride in the struggles of my ancestors and in the heritage or more than two thousand years as a developing nation. I wouldn't go anywhere near "raw patriotism." It is a vile concept and shameful to anyone who embraces it. It is the emotion encouraged by demagogues and dictators as VM has suggested.

Oh my Goodness!!!! Megra.....you have the temerity to suggest that patriotism is a vile concept!!! and shameful? I'm ROFL about your entire message.
You suggest that because your country is older than mine....I do not have pride? I have great pride and confidence in my country.....and would never denigrate it's image by suggesting that MY flag is a "rag on a stick".....anymore than I would suggest YOUR country considers it's flags....."rags on a stick"... That's very embittered, and makes me still feel sorry for you.

You obviously do not understand emotions and Love for your country...
It has nothing to do with whichever "leader" is in charge... It's the pride of your heritage!!!

The USA does have it's own heritage of Arts, Culture as does yours.
As an Artist, I am well aware of all this.

You really are amusing, but your "views" have been interesting but not informative reading.

Miriam

[megra]

I did not suggest that patriotism is a vile concept which you must know, if you have read what I have written with any care or understanding. What is a vile concept is the mindless stick up a flag and salute it mentality that you advocate in your so-called "raw patriotism."

I said nothing about the age of your country. Indeed your country has an immensely long history if one has respect for the culture of its aboriginal inhabitants. The culture it prefers to acknowledge however is very recent and all borrowed either from Europe or Africa.

Your flag is as much a rag on a stick as anyone else's. Did you not bother to read the clearly given definitions of the two nouns in that phrase. Your flag (I eschew the vulgar capitals you give personal pronouns) is made of cloth i.e., rag. It is customarily stuck on a stick or pole (dependent upon the size of the said flag). There is nothing embittered about a correct understanding of the English language, something apparently that you lack.

Given that my whole argument has been based on the insistence upon an deeper engagement with the culture and heritage of societies than watching a piece of cloth flapping in the wind, your accusation about my alleged failure to understand emotion or love of culture is grotesque.

Enjoy your inane laughter. It is misplaced. You have offered nothing to this debate except mindless nationalism and the very superficiality that I complained about, consistently throughout this thread. Any fool can wave a flag and any flag that is marched behind by fools deserves burning. Governments that make the burning of flags illegal are often the governments that burn other people's countries.

Ancient Rome did not have a national flag, nor did Classical Athens. Genghis Khan did not lead his people with a flag. The Celts spread through most of Western Europe leaving their sublime if bloody cultural heritage and their DNA behind them - but they didn't leave a flag.

[Miriam]

You are really tooooooooo elitist as well as being toooooooo funny, Megra.

You many "think" of yourself as ever so knowledgeable about life, however you actually portray only your ignorance! Yep! Ignorance!

My culture was not .....borrowed.....from Europe...silly lady.... my culture happily fled people who think such as you do...to find a new and brilliant country to establish.

Your continued use of RAG ON A STICK is insulting, but you know that!

Pride in one's land of birth, brought to the surface by a National Anthem and the waving of FLAGS is a very special emotion.

There is no explaining it to someone who wants to make themselves appear "above it all" however....

I don't care to discuss Ghengis Khan or the rest of your extraneous nonsense with you, as the subject was FLAGS!!!

It's obviously useless to attempt to explain any point of view to you, however.
May you be hoisted on your own petard!!!

Good Luck! I'd be most careful when out in public about expressing your views however!!!

Cheers
Miriam

[vannin]

May you be hoisted on your own petard!!!

[megra]

You are really tooooooooo elitist as well as being toooooooo funny, Megra.

I'm not in the least bit elitist as anyone not bristling with insecurities knows

You many "think" of yourself as ever so knowledgeable about life, however you actually portray only your ignorance! Yep! Ignorance!

I don't many [sic] "think" of myself at all. As to ignorance read below

My culture was not .....borrowed.....from Europe...silly lady.... my culture happily fled people who think such as you do...to find a new and brilliant country to establish.

Your culture is still borrowing. Far from all of the immigrants to your country were fleeing there. Many went there with money to make more money at the expense of those already there as Thomas Hariot was well aware back in 1585. Your "brilliant" country wasn't "established." It was stolen and the true nature of the "American Dream" has found its true expression at Oklahoma, Columbine, Virginia Tech etc. I have known and do know delightful American individuals, often generous of spirit and intelligent (sadly you don't count among them), but as a state there is something rotten at the heart of it.

Your continued use of RAG ON A STICK is insulting, but you know that!

Buy a dictionary, dear, or learn to read, starting with the above thread.

Pride in one's land of birth, brought to the surface by a National Anthem and the waving of FLAGS is a very special emotion.

No it isn't. It is tawdry, cheap and superficial sentiment and has nothing to do with pride.

There is no explaining it to someone who wants to make themselves appear "above it all" however....

It is always the mark of a poor reasoner that they will assume they know what another person thinks or wants. And it is invariably the case that they are a whole series of barns away from the truth, let alone a barn door but to be honest I couldn't give a rat's arse what you think. You'd have to command my respect for me to care and before you jump in with some other febrile and gratuitous accusation, there are plenty of people for whom I have the greatest respect and whose opinon matters to me. You're just not ever going to be one of them.

don't care to discuss Ghengis Khan or the rest of your extraneous nonsense with you, as the subject was FLAGS!!!

And that is precisely what I was writing about. Don't care to? Perhaps can't is more accurate.

It's obviously useless to attempt to explain any point of view to you, however.

So far from the truth. I am deeply interested in other people's points of view. Of course, they have to have some substance and be explained fully and logically for them to hold my interest. That's where you are failing to engage.

May you be hoisted on your own petard!!!

It's hoist not hoisted and with not on. If you are going to use quotations at least have the grace to quote correctly. BTW, I don't actually own a petard. Indeed, I've never even seen one but then they did become obsolete several centuries ago.

I'd be most careful when out in public about expressing your views however!!!

I don't need to be careful, never have, never will. Honesty and expressing opinions based on solid foundations is all I have ever needed. That is all that is ever required of me by those with sincerity, a modicum of intelligence and a a genuine desire to exchange knowledge and information

And suddenly I'm so very bored. Trying to have a serious discussion with somebody with such a blatant disregard for anything approaching a fact, who insists on taking out her own obvious sense of inadequacy on others is wearing. It's not as though you are in the least bit interested anyway and it's not as though you have any desire to raise yourself above your superficial self-absorption. What started as an interesting discussion has degenerated because of your silly need to attempt to best someone else with a string of insults if nothing else in your limited arsenal works. Ain't gonna happen. I'm outta here so I suggest you go play with yourself.