Ain't it the troof

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Postby ciderman_nz » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:48 pm

It's no more racist than the Irishman trying to blow up a bus and burning his lips on the exhaust!
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Postby Rowan » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:20 pm

That's pretty racist too Ciderman.
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Postby ciderman_nz » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:58 am

Alright the Kiwi who burned his lips while trying to blow up a bus.
I wouldn't be offended.
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Postby Sass » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:40 am

....................Fourteen families, they moving in,
But neighbour's patience wearing thin.

Finally, British guy moves away.
Now I buy his house, then I say,

'Find more immigrants for house to rent.'
And in the yard I put a tent.

Everything is very good,
And soon we own the neighbourhood.


We have hobby, it's called breeding.
Welfare pay for baby feeding.................


And you equate this! with a kiwi/Irishman trying to blow up a bus!!!

EXCUSE ME??

I concede that if Irish/'Paki'/Blonde jokes do offend those who find them offensive, then that is the reaction, that is how they genuinely feel. Why should we then categorize that as not offensive/not racist? Who the hell are 'we' to judge what is offensive? Because it doesn't offend us?

The kiwi pronunciation of 6 as sex is something I find inoffensive and amusing. It suddenly occurred to me that you may not, ciderman. So I did something about it. You were not offended. OK. Fine.

Having said all that, I am stunned that ANYONE would not see the that the wording of this so-called 'poem' is aimed at one race in the most derogatory manner. I'm bloody amazed! Try the damned thing on for size; see how you'd feel. (Forget it. DON'T' even attempt to tell me that if this was leveled at you and yours it would not bother you, because I won't believe you.) Read again just the part that I have quoted. Yea God's!! What is the matter with us? Are we really so blind?

Or could it be that "if it's not a problem for me, then it's not a problem". What a thoroughly self-serving attitude; AND a very prevalent one.

_______________________________

Three years ago when this occurred on on 'my' site, I took on board the opinion of H that it was not racist. I approached a member of the Afghan community who owns a small afghan supermarket. This man had tears in his eyes. Then he asked me to 'inspect' !! his supermarket! He wanted to show me how hard he and his two sons had worked to support themselves in this Australian community. We then sat and talked.

He told me that when he came here as a refugee he was looked on as a blight (my word; it's accurate), on the community. He was accused of being a 'welfare bludger'. He then got a job washing dishes; his sons collected supermarket trolleys in the carparks of those supermarkets. And they saved hard. During this time they were accused of taking jobs off Australians.

He told me that he still gets abused for having the supermarket; "profiting" from Australians.

I actually had to stop this dear, gentle, and hardworking man from desperately trying to convince me that he and his family were hard workers; were decent members of society. I put my hand on his arm to tell him I already knew that.

That is when this proud Afghan put his head in his hands and sobbed. Great racking sobs. To do this in front of a woman is a crushing humiliation for an Afghan male. THAT is how distraught he was.

_______________________

I accept that this rubbish was put on the forum with no intended malice.
I will NEVER accept that this is anything but a vile racist shot, designed to incite hatred, by innocuously peddling it as 'poetry'.

For the love of all that is decent; walk in their shoes; feel the way they feel when they have this 'poetry' written about them.
Role play it. TRY to think how you would feel.
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Postby ciderman_nz » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:07 am

Suit yourself.
I know real equality. I've been there I've done it. Not looked in from a perceived outside viewpoint. Ask the Japanese about jokes about 'longnoses'. Ask the Sikh about jokes about the British in the Punjab.
2nd thoughts - it's not worth arguing. There will always be those who want to light a fire.
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Postby Sass » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:04 am

I'm glad you know about equality, and I'm glad you've been there and done it.

Now try putting that sense of equality into what you post Ciderman.

The racism which I'm relieved to see you can recognize is no lesser evil than that which started this thread.............;- or are you really trying to suggest that two (or more) wrongs make a right?

As for Sikh's in the Punjab; my late father was there during partition. I will always defer to those with personal experience over those who simply put forward examples.

And as for those who want to "light fires"; come now Ciderman. Forum allegiances being what they are, the lighting of fires would not be unfamiliar to you;- nor would fanning the flames of same....

I do appreciate though that the thin veneer of hypocritical humour has now been discarded. You are now saying what you really mean. Good!

Over to you.
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Postby ciderman_nz » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:15 am

Racism is no different or worse than the class structure which is still prevalent in society, particularly India and Britain. Make more of it than there is and it becomes worse. Hence the firelighting. I have friends and aquaintances of many races and never once would I put one in a position of being brought to tears such as you have done. Does it give you a patronising sense of superiority? This is what you are portraying to me. Disappointment comes to mind, but then I can't get everybody right in this vague and tenuous internet environment.
In view of your reference to other forums- do I know you? Are you one of these strange men who change their name for the sake of anonymity? I notice that your profile is devoid of any information whatever. Look at mine. I am honest.
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Postby Rowan » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:20 am

Stereotyping in its worst form is rife in just about every country in the world. The Americans have THEIR whipping boys and so does the UK, Australia and New Zealand. I know what's its like to be regarded as a second class citizen - twice over - in the UK my first stereotyping comes from being a Scot - tight fisted, mean, leaching off the UK etc etc - I believe the Irish and Welsh are thought of the same way - NOT by everyone - but enough to offend me for sure. The second comes from being a woman - not a lot of changes there either. I could add another - the so called class structure which should not exist but still does. ALL of these are offensive so I can fully understand why someone - perceived by others as a different race - will feel.

I do NOT believe that there is such a things as different races - there is and can only be one race and that is the human race. The sooner that is accepted we might just get a bit nearer to equality.
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Postby ciderman_nz » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:47 am

That's the whole point Rowan. There is only one race. One species.
On a lighter note- you should have come here! We've got a woman PM, a woman Chief Justice, a woman Minister of Justice, until recently we had a woman leader of the opposition and a Gov.General, and the CEO of the biggest company has just resigned -with a $2million handshake and her was a she as well! and we were the first country to have women voting. (You'll notice that I didn't say 'we gave women the vote'- they demanded it! :now: ) :mrgreen:
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Postby Rowan » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:29 am

Well Ciderman, history tells us that if we as a society discriminate against people, sooner or later they rise up and stop asking, they demand, sometimes violently. We should learn from what has gone before.
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Postby ciderman_nz » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:58 am

There's a bit of interesting background to most of our early settlers, Rowan. Most of them were 'in service'- butlers, housemaids, housekeepers, gardeners etc. People with most of the practical skills and a great desire to do away with the class system. They knew the useful input that half the population could provide- namely the women. So they never had a 'place' to know their place in! :mrgreen:
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Postby Sass » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:13 pm

ciderman_nz wrote:Racism is no different or worse than the class structure which is still prevalent in society, particularly India and Britain. Make more of it than there is and it becomes worse. Hence the firelighting. I have friends and acquaintances of many races and never once would I put one in a position of being brought to tears such as you have done. Does it give you a patronising sense of superiority? This is what you are portraying to me. Disappointment comes to mind, but then I can't get everybody right in this vague and tenuous internet environment.
In view of your reference to other forums- do I know you? Are you one of these strange men who change their name for the sake of anonymity? I notice that your profile is devoid of any information whatever. Look at mine. I am honest.


You patronising little twot! I am graphically aware of your lack of skills in 'portraying'!! Even down to your definition of what constitutes honesty!

NO! you do not know me, but I know of you, and am quite sure a pm. or email will soon put you in the picture about me.

How dare you sit in judgment on me when I talk to one of my own people. HOW DARE YOU!

What in hell do you know of the pain caused to any individual with a darker skin than you. I am NOT talking about knowing different races, I'm talking about being one of them for God's sake!

How dare you tell me what constitutes racial unrest. 'Racism is no better or worse than class structure?????????????????? Try telling that to the Jews you silly man!

I always got along reasonably well with you Ciderman, but frankly I am staggered by your insensitivity and put down of a situation of which you so clearly show complete and utter ignorance.

I truly thought you were an intelligent human being; I stand corrected.
Sass
 

Postby Victors Mate » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:40 pm

I will ignore the above it is getting too personal

The world is full of “isms” some will cause offence to some and not to others.

I am male therefore sexism may apply
I am old therefore ageism may apply
I am English therefore racism (mongrelism?) may apply
I am a socialist therefore socialism may apply
I have a few shares therefore capitalism may apply
I was Church of England therefore sectarianism may apply
I went to grammar school therefore elitism may apply

“Isms” are best avoided for we are all guilty of our own “isms”.

It is all bo**icks and amounts to some folk you like others you don’t and that is the be all and end all of it.

I am not PC nor am I anti-PC just a pensioner and widower trying to come to terms with his lot.
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Postby ciderman_nz » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:55 pm

:lol: It must be the red ink! That, and a deluge of words may confuse the unwary.
I agree VM.
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Postby dejavou » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:40 pm

As I posted the darn thing in the first place, I feel I must make a comment.

I got the poem in an email at work, surprisingly from an Asian colleague, who thought it was hilarious, he posted an aside to say he could give me the address of an estate agent in Afghanistan.

Bearing that in mind, I did not for one instant think that it would be offensive to anybody, so I suppose the whole thing is in the perception.

I'm not going to apologise for posting it, nor am I going to ask for it to be removed, however if it does cause any serious disagreements then I will leave any decision to Rowan, after all it's her "house" we're meeting in
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