Ain't it the troof

Where to start a debate on items in the News or Poliitcal Debate

Postby drogo » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:48 pm

This poem was in the news back in November 2006 when it was emailed by a Tory councillor to party colleagues. At that time, the Conservative party regarded it as a racist poem and were deeply embarrassed.

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I know some people will regard it as amusing but it reinforces racial stereotypes and is useful propaganda for the BNP and other white supremacy groups.
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Postby Rowan » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:03 am

I get things like this all the time in emails. I don't know why because I think most people know my views.

I think what we have to remember is that we don't know everyone on a forum personally, some we have never met, nor seen a photograph of so we can't tell what colour their skin is, whether they are religious/what religion they are. There's more we don't know about someone than what we know. I bet most of us would hate to think we had hurt someone else by what we say.

I'm not deleting this thread simply because it has opened up a talking point and that can't be bad, people can see for themselves how others feel about it. The only thing I can ask is please don't get too personal.
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Postby ciderman_nz » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:11 am

In it's original form,(Pakistani), I was shown this in printed form by a Sikh contractor who worked for our winery in 1995. Don't know where he got it from and it may have differed from the exact words above but was basically the same . He thought it was funny and his Maori worker said," Bloody brown buggers are all the same" and we all laughed. Maybe it's our context here but there was no racism involved.
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Postby Sass » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:00 am

The only way I have been able to access the site is by switching off my virus protection. I have been told for the last two hours that there is a virus on the site. I don't know about this, but have decided to leave my system without protection so that I can post.

I am now leaving this site.

It seems clear to me now that it depends solely on WHO is posting as to the manner in which racist posts are responded to.

When this thread started with the title "Ain't that the Troof"(Truth?)- NO IT ISN'T- there were thankfully some embarrassed and some disapproving reaction.

You Ciderman are entitled to your opinion expressing no problem with it. What I strongly object to is your subsequent lengths to justify the reason why!
Your entire focus has been, that it is inoffensive TO YOU; and therefore should not be considered offensive by others. You went to extraordinary lengths to justify that, even referring to class structure and racism being 'more or less' the same, and humour nullifying racism!

So I'm too personal VM?; I certainly was to you in your loss. I trust that was acceptable to you? As was I note, a post attacking my behaviour in approaching a senior member of my community to assess whether in his opinion I was the one overreacting. I needed to find out. It was suggested as a result, by CNZ that I might consider myself patronizingly superior.

That's not too personal? That's OK with you?

It has nothing to do with who was 'personal' has it? It has everything to do with who you agree with. How sad.

I would be less upset by your remark VM, if you had been a balanced in what you saw as personal.

I am a community lawyer who works at the opposite end of the scale when I join a member of my family in Austria.

I am British with a Pakistani/Afghan mother. I am the youngest of four. The others are all darker than me. I should be grateful....I pass for white, and was advise to hide my cultural background when I came to Australia. LIKE HELL!

Max was right. I am an import.

My brothers were called 'niggers' when they were growing up in the UK. This was prior to the now more popular ('dirty Paki'). I have watched my Great-Uncle spat upon.

I have represented an ethnic gentleman who can no longer work because of his mental state; if I were to tell you what was done to him in the workplace you would probably think I was exaggerating. ( You; CNZ would probably see it as no big deal.)

My eldest brother and his wife and tiny baby were turned away from accommodation because of the colour of his skin. (I waited half an hour and then booked in easily.)

R is a prominent QC in Austria. (I only point this out to show that even 'niggers' can actually have a brain.)

NOW: I know that the next reaction to what I've written is going to be along the lines of 'oversensitivity/overreaction/...pick the justification.

Par for the course. People that are subject to this kind of 'humour' are used to this kind of comeback.

You SHOULD apologise Deja; you should. Why? Because you chose to title that rubbish in the way you did. It is NOT the truth!; and I would have thought that it would have been graphically obvious what this 'humourous poetry' was designed to do.
I reiterate; it really does depend on who is being offensive, doesn't it Deja? I've said nothing to you on this thread until you posted that no apology is necessary. Would it not have been a courtesy to apologise if you caused any hurt with this? EVEN if YOU see nothing wrong with it , or your Asian friend. (A Vietnamese friend of mine was disgusted by the 'poem'. It might be because she was categorised in this manner by a neighbour).

Thank-you Drogo; NOT for 'seeing it my way', but for being a longer term member here than I was, and being willing to point out a source of rubbish and what it is designed to do.

I realise now how close this forum is. I view with profound thanks Drogo that you were at least prepared to 'swim against the tide'. I note that the initial disapproval evaporated; and left me feeling that I was the only one who could see through this vile rubbish.

I know Rowan that you have taken a strong position over racism, particularly from one source. I realise you reiterated that in this thread. BUT, I still fail to see why it is any more acceptable when it comes from a long standing and popular member.

Whatever your intent Deja, you got a fairly immediate hint that your 'poem' was not much appreciated, because it is NASTY.
You watched things get to this stage, and then posted that it was not considered offensive by your Asian friend/ you were not going to apologise. That is a shame.

I have lived with racism all my life; If I thought for a moment that I might have offended someone in this manner, I would immediately apologise.

Please remove all my contact details Rowan. (CNZ: I will put what details I choose or NOT on my profile, as have many others in many forums. It has nothing whatsoever to do with you).

I was going to leave The Tree when Max returned anyway. I thought this was a peaceful place. If it justifies this type of racist rubbish, directly OR indirectly; it is nothing of the kind.

Still; it is a good solution. When this kind of thing comes up anywhere and is so condescendingly dismissed by many as no big deal; then I will react. I have done it before here, and I will do it again.

That is not required here. Peace IS................at any cost.
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Postby ciderman_nz » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:21 am

Well, that at least proves that sass is certainly NOT a lawyer.
It is never my intention to insult or offend anyone. Colour is simply not an issue, so as a racist Sass is probably making the right decision.
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Postby Sass » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:30 am

Still on the site, because once I switch the anti-virus back on I won't be able to access.

Yes, Cider, I AM a lawyer.

Your post including the last line, shows the confidence of a man who knows he can say whatever he wants, because he has the backing of the forum.
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Postby ciderman_nz » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:05 am

Lawyer? Well ok if you say so, but I'm sure you would then have the brains to work out your anti-virus. I don't require any backing from anyone. I am "the cat who walks by himself" but there is one thing I can't stand it's a racist no matter which way he/she directs it.
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Postby Anya » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:28 am

Why is it 'racist' to say that people who are here illegally, should not be here? Whether they are originally from an European country, or Timbuktu?

Why is it 'racist' to say that people who are guests in this country, never paid a penny tax and commit serious crimes, should not be here?

Why is is 'racist' to say that a great deal of crime in this country is committed by migrants?
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Postby ciderman_nz » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:54 am

Basically Anya, it isn't. But Sass was trying to make it so.
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Postby Rowan » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:36 am

Anya wrote:Why is it 'racist' to say that people who are here illegally, should not be here? Whether they are originally from an European country, or Timbuktu?

Why is it 'racist' to say that people who are guests in this country, never paid a penny tax and commit serious crimes, should not be here?

Why is is 'racist' to say that a great deal of crime in this country is committed by migrants?


It isn't racist to say that some people are here illegally; it isn't racist to say that somee people here have never paid a penny tax or committed serious crime, nor is it racist to say that a great deal of crime is this country is committed by immigrants - what IS racist is to single out ANY particular group WHOEVER they are and say that it is all commited by them or even mostly committed by them.

We have plenty of people in this country - who can trace their ancestors in this country back hundreds of years who don't pay a penny tax, who have never worked a day in their lives and who commit serious crimes - we do very well on that as far as I can see.

I am sorry Sass you feel like that. However, I accept that you do not wish to remain a member. I kbnow Deja well, she posts loads of emails that she gets - with the title that they came with and I cannot believe that she would do this knowing that it was racist. I have not known her to be racist at any time.

Deja says that her Asian colleague did not find it offensive, well my friend, who happens to be Indian, didn't find it racist either but me and my colleague at work, who is Scottish from way back, DID find it to be racist.

It may be that some people can accept this and not find it racist, that is their right but many do not accept it and I don't want this forum deteriorating into a rabble. It is something we do need to debate and talk about though - this is the way that things change.

In future if there is any debate which shows signs of obviously getting heated it will be moved to the two debating areas we have on here so that those who don't want to get into this kind of discussion will know where not to go.
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Postby Steve » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:35 pm

I do not think the poem is racist. Indeed it highlights a growing problem in this country. Nearly every week we see on our TV screens some programm or other highlighting the fact that some people coming into our country are screwing the system for all it is worth.

This week Romanias have been getting the front pages after massive police raids accross the country and arrests being made. The people arrested are mainly on welfare and using children as young as 3 years old to rob people, pick pockets, steal from tables in cafe's and pubs.

If these people are here illegally then they deserve nothing except a ticket home. I am fed up listening to the PC brigade saying we need them here and that they pay taxes.............OH yes a few might but the vast majority dont. Many dont even keep their money in this country but send it abroad.

Oh and dont dare anyone call me a racist as my father was an immigrant who came here after ww11 and I got all the name calling when at school etc.

Deja a racist....more chance of me becoming Pope.
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Postby Oddquine » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:50 pm

I have to say that I didn't read the post as racist, either, but as a rant against a Government which throws money at indigent immigrants with both hands, whether those immigrants are white, brown, yellow, black or sky blue pink.

Give it a few weeks and it will be Poles or Romanians and not Afghanis who will be seen as writing the poem.

It is a truth..........and a result of being a country which, unlike most other countries in the world, doesn't have any mechanism to ensure that those who arrive here come to employment and that those without jobs are genuine refugees.

I am not racist and perhaps it is because I am not that I read it in the way I do.......but I feel that a significant part of racial problems in this country is the tendency of people to take offence where none was meant.

There is little chance of racial harmony when everything said is dissected and the odd word..............like turban and Afghanistan in this poem (do they wear turbans in Afghanistan?)....is pounced on to illustrate racial overtones, rather than the rest of the poem being pounced on to illustrate successive Governments which appear to be incompetent.

Yes, it is can be read as racist, if you want to concentrate on the two words which make it so, rather than the rest of the poem which, I'm afraid IS very near to truth as displayed in the media and perceived by UK citizens of all colours!

I am sorry that Sass feels that we are a clique and has decided to leave, but I can assure her that if anyone else, including herself had posted that poem, it would have been left alone........and if she hadn't introduced the racist element, the thread would probably have continued as one discussing the lack of immigration controls from all countries.

The fact that the world sees the UK as the last example of a nation which has no control over its borders and is profligate with its welfare payments is the message I took from the poem, not that it was written by an Afghani wearing a turban.
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Postby clevewyn » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:46 pm

As a newcomer here I have watched this one with considerable interest, it does after all give me an insight as to who is who and where they are coming from.

It has been said already that today the “ist” handle is too easily applied, likewise the “phobe” one.

It is my belief that it all hangs on the intent of the poster/story teller, if the intent was to offend then in my view you could reasonably claim it to be offensive or racist as the case may be.

I do not know Dejavou as far as I am aware although I have seen the name elsewhere and not associated with any nastiness so have to conclude it was posted for a giggle rather than with any malice.

Having said that there are issues raised in the content of the post that need to be addressed with regard to scroungers no matter what colour race or creed they happen to belong to, including the home grown ones which we seem to have in abundance without importing any more.

We have quite a number of what you might call non Scots around here, most of whom seem to be prepared to muck in and give the rest of us a hand.

I have no problem with that.

As has been said it is a pity that this could not have been discussed even argued about without having anybody jumping at the keyboard and shouting racist, bigot or any other word that suits their purpose. Sadly in most places these days there is always someone waiting to be offended, usually on somebody else’s behalf.
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Postby dejavou » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:34 pm

Thanks Oddie, you hit the nail right on the head, it is indeed more of a dig at the Government than at any race or creed. Stevie, I'm not sure you would be cut out to be Pope, I don't think popes do bubblebaths!!

I'm sorry that this has resulted in the loss of Sass, I enjoyed reading her posts but that's her decision.

Everybody who knows me would testify that I'm the first one to dive in if I perceive an injustice, however if political correctness has got everybody looking for implied insults in everything, then I'm glad I'm nearer checking out of this world, than clocking in.

Think I'll go back to posting one liners :dunno:
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Postby vannin » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:49 pm

She is still on the Membership list.
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